[Music]
I'm George Galloway and I present Cal
Imahara on our my Dean television here
we are in London I speak my words really
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check it out on our my team television
welcome to Cali Mahalo with me George
Galloway on Al mayadeen television
coming to you from London talking about
China China is already arguably the most
important country on the earth the
biggest population the biggest economy
and the biggest army and in the lifetime
of the youngest viewer of this program
this evening it will be pre-eminently so
incontestably so this is a reality which
some in the West are finding difficult
to handle and indeed they're doing
everything that they can to slow the
progress to that inevitable end whether
its economic sanctions against Huawei
excluding Chinese technology from
Western economies whether it's finding
one cause celebra or another one day
it's the Falun Gong religious sect the
next its Tibet the Dalai Lama and most
recently the vexatious question of
China's Muslim minority we'll come back
to that in just a couple of minutes but
China is beginning now to influence
political decision making in a way that
even a few years ago was difficult to
imagine Chinese people followed the
rubric of when you're strong appear weak
when you're weak appear strong
and they take things very cautiously and
carefully but I'll tell you the moment
when I realized that things had begun to
change when the David Cameron's
Conservative government in Britain tried
but failed to persuade the British
Parliament to launch bombing raids on
the government of Syria and its armed
forces the British government were
working themselves into a lather over
China's policy towards the matter I was
a member of parliament at that time and
I well remember as a foreign affairs
specialist being invited to a private
briefing from the then Foreign Secretary
William Hague who told us with great
exasperation that he had been trying to
reach the Chinese Foreign Minister on
the telephone to try to persuade them to
support British involvement in the war
against the government of Syria and mr.
Haig informed us in sorrow and in anger
that the Chinese Foreign Minister simply
refused to come to the phone to talk to
him instead he sent a functionary his
personal secretary
to tell the British Foreign Secretary
there are no circumstances in which
China will support the bombardment of
Syria and I remember thinking at the
time that this insult to the former
Greek colonial power of Great Britain
marked something of a turning point and
in the few years since China has begun
to put its foot down in the political
sphere it has begun to show I was going
to say acquire but certainly show a
political weight commensurate with its
economic weight its population weight
its strategic importance and we'll be
looking at that subject today
China is a gigantic success story the
government of China has lifted more
people out of poverty than any system
any government ever has in the entire
history of the human race China is a
buzzing humming economic power and it is
beginning to be obviously so even to the
least astute of Western observers that's
not to say that there is nothing wrong
with China's policy at home or abroad I
argue that the most significant
potential weakness for China is the
Muslim question in China which many of
you watching this today will already be
familiar with you won't necessarily be
familiar with the true facts but you
will be familiar with the general
narrative that is being spun namely that
China is suppressing or pressing its
Muslim minority the Uighur people in
Sinkiang and other Chinese Muslims that
China launches an annual war on Ramadan
stopping people from worshipping
stopping them from fasting I even saw a
meme the other day that China is forcing
Uighur Muslims in China to drink alcohol
most of that is complete nonsense
it's Western propaganda but not all of
it and I have some history in this
regard in the 1990s early in the 1990s
before anyone in the West had ever heard
of the name or sama Bin Ladin I gave a
lecture to the International Department
of the Central Committee of the Chinese
Communist Party warning them that a US
turn against China
had begun and that bin Laden and the
Islamist trend
he represented was being pointed at
China because already with the failure
of the following Gong the failure of
Tibet some wedge had to be found by
Western imperialist countries to be
driven into China to try and slow if not
halt
China's apparently inexorable advance I
remember it well because even the
Chinese party functionaries that I was
talking to had never heard of Osama bin
Laden they certainly didn't know how to
spell his name because they queued up
around me for the English spelling of
his name it is true that the West is
using China's Muslim problem to damage
China but it is also true that the
Chinese government is handling its
Muslim question far from perfectly but
that's not the only issue we're going to
talk the this evening about the belt and
road initiative which essentially and on
the face of it certainly is a non
imperialist policy of linking up the
world through transport infrastructure
industrial investment to try and allow
these countries in which particularly in
Africa China is heavily involved though
it's heavily involved in Latin America
to to try and strengthen the
infrastructure of these countries to the
mutual benefit of everyone and that's
good but there are concerns in Africa in
particular that this could turn at some
date in the future into a kind of new
imperialism a new colonialism there is a
sense in some places amongst some people
in Africa that China is becoming rather
too ubiquitous in their economies and in
their societies
until now China has shown not a
scintilla of interest in interfering in
anybody else's political affairs on the
contrary China maintains and has always
maintained good relations if I take a
country like Pakistan for example with
any and all regimes that have come to
power either legally democratically or
by military coup and China has treated
those governments those regimes exactly
the same maintaining that it's policy is
of friendship towards the people of
Pakistan rather than any government
which is of course here today and gone
tomorrow we have an audience here this
evening of distinguished experts and one
or two enthusiastic amateurs like me so
let's kick off the debate on China's
belt and Road initiative what it means
and what kind of China are we seeing now
more and more clearly in the light let
me start with you sir thank you my name
is ed David Otto I am an anti-terrorism
and organized crime a specialist for
globe erics International I thank you
very much for the discussions you are
talking about especially when we talk
about China that is imagine or also off
so to speak or actually the J one of the
giant nations in the world especially
when you you talk about the internal
dynamics because there is no nation that
would be as powerful as the u.s. used to
be or East or the Great Britain used to
be and it is without having a very
powerful internal economy and internal
stability and this is what China has
been working on it used to be referred
to as the sleeping giant you know the
world where that giant has now arose and
the internal strategy which China has
been used in has been in such a way that
with its you know huge population but
anyway any any continent or any country
in the world they've managed to
stabilize the country to in such a way
that it allows them to go externally and
coming to the building of the Silk Road
which
you know inevitably it's going to cost
more than nine hundred million u.s.
dollars now the reason why China is
doing that again as you said perhaps
could be for you know help in other
countries in Africa or in the Middle
East or Europe to develop their internal
economies but primarily there is no
friendship there is no enmity China does
that for its own interests primarily
secondary perhaps you know and again
it's made perhaps it is doing that to
assist or you know a create the
globalization that it talks about but
when you look at the stick that China
gets the reason for that is because you
know most countries like the United
States they are the super powers when it
comes to military prowess
you know Great Britain you know they did
very well during the days of
colonization they colonize most of the
world and they made the name of that
china is looking to make its name out of
its economic
infrastructures out of his economic
investments because they believe of
course I mean they believe that the only
way for them to compete you know on the
same platform with you know the United
States and with Great Britain is for
them to expand economically they have
the the the people the numbers game on
your side they have the population that
can can consume some of these economic
benefits that they will be bringing to
China they have the money to spend the
physical cost to spend they're comparing
you know head-to-head with the
international monetary form the IMF so I
think but you know the position that
China it's its place in itself is no
doubt a serious threat you know I may
say to you know the United States
because and Great Britain of course and
other superpowers but again you know the
this is all about geopolitics this is
all about China's personal interest if I
were to advise all the countries you now
tell them to strike a deal that would be
beneficial to their economies that would
be beneficial to their people because
China will not do any deal that would
not be beneficial to his people and
that's where think China stands
excellent introduction thank you for the
Adam Gary you are the head of Eurasia
future you specialize in this field how
do you see
this new China that is more and more
clearly being seen in Western capitals I
see the new China as the antidote to
some of the biggest problems that the
world is facing today now a lot of
people talk about the word fascism and
fascism is back in a way and the form
that it is taken is the zero-sum
mentality and this isn't the fascism of
the beer hall and it's not the fascism
of marching soldiers
it's the fascism of a mentality that
says in order for me to be rich you need
to be poor in order for me to be secure
you need to be destroyed in order for me
to be impenetrable you need to be
molested this zero-sum mentality which
expresses itself in the fields of trade
protectionism economics finance the
all-important but too little discussed
monetary policy and of course the
ubiquitous military sector is very much
at play in the world today now China
proffers something that's the antithesis
of the zero-sum mentality this is the
win-win mentality which says if we're
able to make a peaceful world and if
this is something that collectively
mankind should strive for there's got to
be a solid and sustainable foundation
this foundation is prosperity because
when someone is poor there's usually an
element of exploitation involved and
inversely when one is prosperous there's
usually a Placida T which sets in the
ether and eventually is able to change
the very enlightened spirituality if I
can use that word of men and women and
indeed of children this is the
philosophical essence of vultan Road
finally I should say there's no coercion
involved which makes Pelton Road very
different from the systems that were
employed by the British Empire the
American financial empire the wall
street and City of London empires which
answered to neither of the previous two
it's the other way around in fact
there's no coercion no political strings
attached no military alliances it's
merely about economic development and
people-to-people development
Java you you with your economist hat on
an economist of note is that how you see
it is it as entirely benign as Adam Gary
thinks it is so our answer is no I think
it's far more complicated than that so
I'd like to say a few things about your
introduction first you and did not like
to say a few things about the reality
for me in you in your introduction I
totally agree that China has become far
more important in the world economy it
should become more important it deserves
to be given its its size in terms of
population and economy as you said but
it is not the world's largest economy is
still the u.s. the u.s. is 18 trillion
dollars a year China's around 11 or 12
trillion it's only if you adjust for
what we call purchasing power parity
which is differences in inflation
does China surpass the US but in terms
of its its its its its economy the US is
still by far the world's most important
economy in that that has to be said and
China's population is large whether it's
been rapidly caught by India for example
it's it's a it's it's an important
nation it should be regarded destruction
should be taken seriously absolutely on
its current built-in road initiative
well it's about projecting its economic
power it is about being able to get
access to goods because it needs large
amounts of imports of raw materials to
fuel its growth but it's also about
access to the markets for its goods and
it's creating something which would
benefit the countries that it is dealing
with but also benefit it so it is about
forming strong relationships but with
those strong relationships will come
more power it will have a say in what
happens in those economies and you are
right to point to the fact that in
Africa there are doubts about the
pervasiveness of its power its
relationships with some of the elites
the quality of some of the work which is
done for example some of the roads that
you being built already falling apart it
uses its own labor rather than employing
locals it's about whether or not that
money that it spends in those countries
benefits those countries specifically or
just gets benefits mainly to the Chinese
so there are big
and social issues which will come out of
this but that is the nature of the world
it is also the nature of power by the
way I do think that it is right to spend
that money I do think it's a
counterweight to some of the faults that
the West has although I wouldn't paint
the West as monolithic Gorge as you do
because I think there are big
differences between the US as its
incarnated at the moment and was a few
years ago and also between what Europe
thinks about some of what's going on and
what the US thinks about some some of
what's going on so the world is far more
nuanced and complex than just these
sheer blocks that we talk about but I do
think that China has a huge problem and
the problem is it's not democratic how
does it mutate into a democratic state
where it's people ever say in how they
govern at the moment it is totally
driven by the fact that to legitimize
the hold of the Communist Party in power
in China it has to deliver ever higher
levels of living standards and that is
it's imperative and I do think it's
treating Eggers badly I do think that's
the beginning of some sort of police
state in that part of China but that
part of the country is vitally important
to it it's 40 percent of his energy so
there's hard power realities that have
to be taken into account as well and
that's my preamble there's lots more to
say you're gone as a as an introduction
I think that maybe I should stop there
and then maybe we can continue this as
you please
Adam Garrard the the picture there
Trevor pate says is rather different to
yours maybe you're right maybe he's
right maybe the truth lies in between
but how would you immediately respond
well I would say that managerial issues
need to be separated from the overall
aim when building any business when with
building any country it would be more
scandalous and more shocking if
everything went swimmingly without any
supper without any surprises without any
shocks such a state doesn't exist on
earth people are fallible and China as a
very rational society based on the very
rational form of government that's
existed from the time of dong Zhou Qing
to the age of Xi Jinping thought is one
that is willing
to correspond and the A's with all of
its partners if a road isn't built to
scratch there will be dialogue and it
will be rebuilt when the first
generation of an infrastructural project
requires foreign workers the second and
third we'll see that balanced redressed
we have to remember too that it's
totally fallacious to hold China both
internally and in terms of its
developmental partnerships to the same
standards to which one holds countries
that have achieved first world status
after centuries of wars of genocide of
holy wars of slavery and of all sorts of
suffering that between 1949 and the
present day hasn't existed in China so
if we're going to compare records not
only has China developed quicker but
with the problems that are necessary in
all developing societies I think China's
record frankly is a lot better than some
of the countries which today are part of
the first world which China as China
itself says is not yet part of the first
world while China was of course occupied
by the first world it was sacked
exploited invaded literally occupied
with sovereignty asserted Great Britain
in the last hundred and twenty years
literally took parts of China and said
that's no longer China it's Britain
Britain bombarded China to force China
to accept heroine from our Empire in
India and that kind of criminal rape
actually of China is not a distant
memory the Chinese People's Republic
only came into being in the lifetime of
some people actually watching this
program there was a period of ultra-left
politics in China which at
some games made many mistakes
the modern China were actually talking
about here now it's only what's the dong
shopping period where we're talking 40
years so in 40 years China has emerged
in the shape it's in now and should be
judged accordingly now do you want to
quickly respond I think what we have to
agree is that democracy is not for every
country the Chinese economy has been
able to develop you know aside from the
type of democracy that we expect you
know what to happen in China that
happens in the West you know I've just
been to China a couple of months ago and
you can tell that of course there are
you know the social media is rex treated
you know but when you meet the people in
china they don't express any some any
any sort of you know oppressed
oppression style regime that you know
the west always paints that to be so I
don't think democracy is you know the
level of judgment that we can use to
characterize you know how well a nation
is doing but of course if you want to
talk about democracy is a system where
the majority rules over the minority so
if you know you go to China you would
find that the majority are happy the
minority may not be happy so it's still
the same system of government that runs
much more coming up after this
[Applause]
you
[Applause]
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you're watching calamara with me George
Galloway on are my team talking about
China earlier we took the kalam ahora
camera onto the streets of London to see
what the people thought let's take a
look
what do you know about the Chinese new
Silk Road I'm sorry I don't know
anything about that I didn't know about
that I don't really know enough about it
to be able to see anything meaningful
about it to be honest so sorry oh well
I'd never heard about it so is it true I
just heard about Silk Road the China
wanted to expand their strength maybe
it's a way of protecting themselves or
expanding their commercial link with
more countries making sure that the more
trade they can do the better it will be
for their economy and money it's
basically a road that they using to
connect the world and you know which by
sea or land and which I honestly don't
support because I own it
I think is gonna cause more pollution
that the world already has dinner with I
believe it's gonna be made in 2049
they're trying to build some sort of
connection between China and other
countries such as Pakistan Sri Lanka and
other countries as well in order for
like strong trade and travel and stuff I
think
will the New Silk Road only benefit
China or the whole world in case of
Norton path its benefits only China
because they are planning to make drain
connection to Nazi to Helsinki and make
the tunnel to Tallinn and then go in the
middle of Europe and it's kind of awful
dominant thing - next hundred years I
feel I would definitely be a positive
advantage to countries so not just to
China I'd be a advantage impacts - Lanka
and the other countries definitely in
terms of stock trade as well as travel
maybe as well so yeah definitely a
advantage to other countries not just
China
why do you think the u.s. opposes the
New Silk Road it could be in terms of
maybe feeding a threat as well as not
having control over what's happening
there in terms of like travel maybe and
stock trade and stuff like that but
definitely a big threat maybe I would
say as they don't feel that they would
be in control as much I think it's
because of the economic power that they
believe if China gets this it's going to
be an upper hand and the u.s. in general
they like to be in charge of everything
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well I think China needs to invest a
little bit in its public relations
because not many people know about the
subject that we're talking about madam
you had a question
I don't know how relevant this is but
I'm earlier you spoke about the IMF and
the infantryman obviously the world
regulated Bank do you think about it did
you think that holds a certain
responsibility that they're ignoring in
this particular on this particular
subject well I think the balance is
shifting the Asian financial development
infrastructure is becoming far more
important than the IMF and the World
Bank as the political balance in the
world
shifts and there's no doubt what the IMF
and the World Bank do with their money
they bludgeoned the countries that they
lend to into absolute surrender to their
prevailing economic and political modes
in a way which actually the Asian
Development Bank's don't do so we're not
comparing China's approach to these
matters with a group of saints you know
this is the the IMF and the World Bank I
would argue are international criminals
over the last 50 years in the way that
they have destroyed any possibility of a
fair a balanced adjust international
order in poor countries that's my own
view don't have to accept it let's take
the gentleman in the middle yes sir
yes my name is Russ me in the orange one
I just want to ask the question after
listen all the gentlemen would say and
you also and then we come to the
conclusion this one bill and one road is
a good initiative that it will progress
in the world but when they come to the
politic part of will I just want to know
whether you can answer this question
between the ways is try to holding or
derail this
project easily the incident in Indonesia
in Philippine in New Zealand and in sea
Lanka is help any connect to this
project well some Isis some are nodding
I don't myself think so but I wouldn't I
wouldn't put it past those that are
threatened by China's rise to do
anything at all to try and stop it to go
back to a point I made earlier I was
there working with the Saudi opposition
in London when they were openly
discussing using the genuine real Muslim
question in China as a means of dividing
China
what is China's main asset it's United
population so if you are US imperialism
what do you want to do you you want to
break China up you want to make it less
United less powerful at the center my
difference with the Chinese government
is some of the things that they are
doing on the Muslim question are
actually making division and breakup
more likely not less likely and so far
they're not listening to me quiet
I think the judgement is referring to
issues of terrorism attack terrorist
attack one thing which China has done
very well is to be if not neutral
they've avoided involving themselves in
in matters that concern you not with
with politics you know what interfering
in politics with different countries so
I think you know they've done very well
in that but again as you know we all
know one of the things that the you know
the big States the US and all that are
trying to put forward is this idea that
you know you know if they destabilize
the internal security of China then it
literally you know you know makes them
to be unable to
completely you know their economic
prowess but that is one thing which
China needs to work on because if you're
building this kind of extensive networks
all these straight routes you have to be
able to have the security architectures
in a workplace because again those are
security threats so I think the the US
may have a case in terms of keeping an
eye on these infrastructural
developments because it poses and a
critical infrastructure trade Trevor can
I just say two major things I think I
think it's absolutely wrong to argue
that democracy is not a good thing it is
not the suppression of the minority by
the majority at all democracy is far
more than that it's about listening to
views and taking account of their views
it is not a win-win situation just for
those who vote most in a certain
circumstances I think that it's totally
wrong to argue that for any country in
the world that they shouldn't be
democratic and somewhere it's good for
them that they have these people you
don't think that's what happens in
democratic countries I mean it's very
nuanced George I think it's a very
nuanced situation but we must be careful
here that we're not arguing for
dictatorships I know run it in the way
that suits them but main point though if
I just go on I mean I think that's a
different debate about what is democracy
and how does it work and what democratic
institutions and it's about named able
to change the state the nature of the
Chinese state under the current
leadership is different from the one and
the down shopping it's it's a point it's
a fact he's now made himself virtually
unseeable and that's a bad thing for
China and I think that will lead to a
proliferation of mistakes in future if
things don't go right but that's that's
the best my own view on this Elizabeth
just Park that for a moment because as I
said I'm fundamental a Liberal Democrat
and I believe that people should have
the right to remove their leaders rules
all stratas of power and I really think
that it's it's disgusting that we argue
that it's not the case the world has
moved on from the past I also totally
agree that there's the the US and
Britain and the colonial powers of
course what they did was disgusting
however where we are and the your what
missing in this debate so far China's
rise has not been somehow at the expense
of other countries true but you must
also recognize that it's because it was
allowed to join the world trading system
that countries such as the US and the
AdWords lasts economies were willing to
buy their goods and allow them to invest
in China so that their goods could be
produced there too the enrichment of
China they transfer technology they
allowed this growth to take place now on
the one hand of course there are other
aspects to its security aspects there
are the things that has been pointed to
about some of the pushback against
China's dominance and so forth in some
parts and the willing and unwillingness
maybe to fully accept the ramifications
of the rise of a country as large and
important as China undoubtedly is
however you guys must recognize that
than shopping open China to the world
the world embraced China they allowed it
to get as rich as it possibly could
through trading openly with the rest of
the world that is why it is as rich as
it is today and I think that we are and
the audience will misunderstand the rise
of China they do not know that this is
the case but capitalism doesn't care
about political systems does it
otherwise we wouldn't be trading so
gaily with Saudi Arabia for example if
you want to talk about democracy and
human rights we buy and sell to Saudi
Arabia however many people's heads it
cuts off in public on a Friday afternoon
however many people that crucifies that
is absolutely true but at the same time
your trades with countries capitalism
can be an ideology for some but I'm not
talking about capitalism George the
market good China is a market economy
but it is not capitalist it remains a
socialist and communist run country
using the market economy to enrich its
citizens you can do both Saudi Arabia is
a market economy but is this also a
feudal system
by a kleptocracy a brutal one
undoubtedly with strong links to certain
elements of the u.s. true no question
but at the same time George that country
will trade the US this is with other
countries who are benign who don't do
these things this is the world we live
in it can be good and bad this is this
is the nuance that there is they don't
necessarily choose to trade with
countries that are as evil as that
regime and I agree this is totally an
evil regime and I wish they would stand
against it but their vested interest
there but our vested interests elsewhere
- my point is this ultimately China -
will have vested interests
once it builds this this belton Road
once it has assets in these places it
will have to defend these assets it will
have to take positions on the power
structures in these countries that those
relationships will change over time
that's the point I'd like to make about
the future for China given this
initiative which as I said will benefit
it primarily but it can also benefit
those countries depending on how they
respond to it and if they do not respond
in a way which benefits their people and
their economy then it won't benefit them
at all it will benefit a kleptocracy a
group at the top who will get all of the
benefits and keep it for themselves and
that appens when their undemocratic
let's take the gentleman behind you my
name is Musa and as we can see with
China this is a very ambitious move so
of course isn't gonna be in ads or USA
as a move of you're trying to step a bit
further than you can reach so China in
the long term are gonna have to build
strong relationships in Africa and
through the roads and what now it might
look good to us in the West but every
country needs more infrastructure every
country needs to progress and USA just
like to stay ahead and keep everyone
under their shackles so in the long term
of course it's gonna be a good thing
overall for the majority of the world as
you if you're looking at as a whole and
not just singly then it would be more of
a beneficial thing gentlemen at the
front for a huge I'm an independent
activist from Belfast
I just wanted to make a comment that the
only thing you can see from Spears
a Great Wall of China and I think that's
a huge engineering fit that that's that
hasn't been surpassed and I think that
this belt and Road initiative no matter
how long it takes even if it's decades
in the making it's going to open up the
whole world from the east through
Eurasia all the way to the West they're
talking about delivering things patreon
from China to London within two weeks
every single country that it goes
through building the infrastructure the
ports and the bridges and the trends and
the road networks will allow every one
of those countries the opportunity to
expand its economy to use the porch that
the Chinese are building but also China
is investing like between 1 trillion and
3 trillion dollars to make this a
reality now I realize that they're also
giving loans to a lot of the companies
in Africa and along this new belton rude
that they're developing and that may
cause issues and we're gonna have money
can't pay the loans back well yes and
this has already happened isn't it
somewhere would have taken over a port
and they said Sri Lanka and and one of
the countries but just Canada finish a I
think it's a fantastic opportunity I
think going forward it's already been
saying I totally agree with everything
you see it the cooperation between China
is a financial it's a financial
imperialism in a way where it's gonna
have influence and all the countries
that it goes through financially through
the pelton Road project but it's also
it's not the imperialist way of the West
which three regime change and fermenting
tourism and bombing other countries into
subjection so I just really want to say
about the yuan at some stage a lot of
people protect the yuan become the world
reserve currency and I think when that
happens then America is going to be more
frightened of China than it is up to
this moment saying yes most of us
broadcast journalist one thing I have to
do as a journalist sometimes is to look
into the future crystal ball gazing
really if China is going to be emerging
economic power of the future with
America not far behind I can't see it
collapse
overnight some of them futuristic if you
like technologies are really important
to consider in terms of their political
and ethical and moral if you like
overviews let's take nanotechnology
let's take for instance robotic
engineering
let's take I don't know anything which
is to do with basically shaping the
future of the world with the Chinese
system one of the concerns would be if
you have a totalitarian state where
these decisions are made behind closed
doors and you don't have the ethical and
moral robust kind of decision-making
that would be concerned the problem is
though with most of these most of these
technologies and most of the investors
within in the background there primarily
after profit
so if profit an economy is driving all
of these processes then consumer
producer relations the way we're going
to deal with our future our populations
how how we're going to interact is an
area which I think that of course we all
need to be concerned about particularly
though the Chinese because what is their
what is their sort of cultural or moral
kind of outlook to such issues where do
they go in terms of their leadership or
will they will they just operate
according to the transnational
corporations whim on these issues more
so than perhaps even the West was doing
these are questions in my mind about how
will they deal with I'm glad to measure
that last point because that's exactly
what United States dominant capitalist
mode does me you can elect the dog
catcher in the United States you can
elect the the traffic cop
you can Al you can elect everybody but
what difference does it make Donald
Trump's the president he lost the
election
you can only stand for president with a
chance of winning if you've got a
billion dollars to spend and nothing
changes what's the difference between
Bill Clinton Barack Obama Donald Trump
to what extent is this democracy of
which you speak of any importance to the
mass of the people in the United States
thirty-five million people in United
States have no healthcare cover 50
million people in the United States
could not survive a $1,000 emergency so
if you've got a system like the Chinese
system which is not democratic according
to our definition of democratic but
everyone's getting richer and richer and
the public realm is getting better and
better which is best I think ultimately
I'm with you on this with social justice
and being able to define what that
future is at the moment seems to be
still locked in this kind of paradigm of
growth economic growth we seem to be
obsessed with growth as if it said in in
untouchable reality of our times growth
is not a absolute reality this is a
reality which usura shmoney lending
mechanisms and systems which capitalism
has imposed on the world dictate to us
have the Chinese broken free from from
that kind of userís model or have they
complied with these transnational sort
of userís money lending mechanism is
that why they're being allowed to
interact have they just sold out just
like the Americans sold out a century
ago so my thing about it my question is
really about ethics and morality of
politics moral politics and does that
moral politics exist on the spectrum
whether it's with China or whether it's
with Western democracies and if it
doesn't
isn't that where wait we ought to be
focusing to change that the narratives
that were given by the the hierarchical
elites and who filter it through the
media through their levers of power the
politics the economic systems I'm I'm
really all for a big debate and
discussion about moral politics and a
new vision a different vision from
simply being driven by growth and profit
and and and the need and I accept that
we need to eradicate poverty it's a
transformational process not a
revolutionary one I get that but is
anybody committed to that I'm committed
to a debate on it I just make this point
to you that the people who rail against
growth are usually the people that are
already rich rather than the
all that want to be yes I Samir valium I
was just getting woman woman tour
towards the point I wanted to make in
the program and it's about a very new
trade deal or business there was they've
got I'm in a pipeline my biggest
concerns always been who benefits from
it because it doesn't ever seem to be
the poorest of the west or the east for
example there's these rules in China
where if you're below a certain amount
in terms of wealth you know a letter
travel or buy an airplane ticket in
England if you're on benefits you're not
allowed to leave the country
unless you've secured a job first even
under freedom of movement so my way
she's been is like yes we can have all
these new great ideas and schemes and
trade deals but we can't have it waste
just a certain section of society that
gets to go to the UAE and benefit with a
great jobs thing and then a certain
section of society gets to get into the
Silk Road and whatever trying to do in
and you know we need to poorest people
when I was when I was your age I had the
right to go and take tea in the Ritz but
I didn't have the money to do it so the
right to do it wasn't actually all that
important that's correct so you know say
same here you know what nice you know
yourself in a car trade driving with
some nice cause I can't afford all these
nice cars but I can drive every single
one and I can tell you everything about
every single one it you know total cars
going but all I'm saying is like we've
we've all these new things out there you
know again capitalism what we brought
endless growth people don't want to fail
is they don't want to say okay we saw it
a little bit less this year doesn't
matter let's try a bit harder next
there's no room for failure
everything is always this kind of KPI
type system of profit profit profit
profit and you know if you lose out
that's a you've lost that you're a loser
and that's the end of your career and
everything and just yummy I just wide
just want if we're gonna have these new
schemes we've got to have it where the
poorest people of the world can benefit
as well not just this you know people
from the grammar schools and a private
school is they know about all the good
stuff first and they benefit from here
then everyone else finds that twenty
years later we do that you know I mean
so this is what my problem is again if
we're gonna do these new like same with
a Pakistan thing you know when we
discuss maybe Imran Khan great they've
got some
there's an anti pipeline but involves
some of the people there not had a piece
of a cake yet no other Mei is a paradox
isn't it you've got you've got a
communist party with all the emblems and
the colors and as red as Trevor socks
but actually what they're pursuing is
capitalism and you can't vote them out
they they have they have the authority
of being a communist revolutionary
government which overthrew foreign
domination United the country and so on
but they don't actually practice
socialism so why should they be allowed
to fly the banner and stay in power
apparently in perpetuity well it's
socialism with Chinese characteristics
for a new era to to coin the precise
phrase but going back a bit further to
the late 70s it was dong who came up
with probably my favorite quote of all
time I don't care if the cat is black or
white so long as it catches mice it's
all about problem solving and that's
what politics is politics isn't an
exercise in vanity or monopolizing money
monopolizing the airwaves monopolizing
force it's about solving problems the
people's problems as many people and as
many problems as one cancelled and let's
imagine this studio were to be put into
a time capsule everything that's been
said is indeed relevant today in less
than 20 years time all of the jobs the
working-clothes jobs the middle-class
jobs I would say the upper-class droves
but at least in England they don't have
jobs they don't even couple the jobs
themselves are going to be they're going
to be transferred from the fleshy hand
to the robotic an artificial
intelligence and there is going to be a
moment when the penny drops where people
are going to say look who is working for
who are we working for the machines or
are the machines working for us now no
system has totally come to terms with
this yet but the fundamental structure
that China has whereby money sir
lates rather than goes down a one-way
street
to who knows where well we know indeed
this is going to be a model that many
other countries will have to look at and
how to adapt it in a flexible way to
their own cultural characteristics and
the own economy that they want for their
people
Travel last word to you damn trapping
also said to be rich is glorious yeah
and he said that because he believed in
spreading wealth through using the
market economy and so arguments against
the market economy my view are define
the facts of the history of the world
over the last 50 years which is that the
world is richer than it's ever been
before
you you do have disparities in income
absolutely but you have the opportunity
even if you're poor George even if you
can't go to the Ritz today you have the
right to go there your children may be
able to go there if you do the right you
can do now yes and you do go now I'm
sure but that's the point the world
changes and one way you change the world
is through education education education
but this this view somehow that the
Nirvana of the communist state is the
future of the world in my view is wrong
I think it's the communist states that
don't have to adjust to the fact that
the world is freer more dynamic than
ever before and that they have to
embrace that and it's simply not true
that the welfare system in China is
better than the welfare system in the US
for example us and welfare system is not
as good as ours in the UK but the
Chinese one doesn't even cover their
people if you can't afford to pay they
have no national health care system so
they have a long way to go the average
Chinese is 6 times 6 times poorer than
the average American so they have to get
a lot richer before they begin to be
first world in the sense that you've
described it earlier George it's been
marvelous for me I hope it was for you
I've been George Galloway this has
kalimera
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